I think there's more than one reason that people decide to perform selfless acts.
For one thing I think it can be a matter of deciding to empathize with the suffering of others. And once one has made that choice, then they are in a sense suffering also. And then alleviating/lessening the other's suffering alleviates their own suffering. Whenever we're empathizing we're in a sense connected and thus selfless acts are selfish in the sense that we're also that other person or animal.
Why do we ever choose to empathize with others?
In seeking to understand the world around us we naturally try to see the other's point of view. This means that we often end up empathizing with the suffering of others. Or just empathizing in general. Thus we end up being connected and performing acts just for others that in a sense don't feel selfless... And some of us are simply better at empathy than others.
Then the question is concerning those who aren't so altruistic. Is it because they're not as good at empathy? Partially yes. Or because they just aren't trying because they don't care as much about understanding the world? Partially yes. Or because they're consciously turning off their empathy when it's for helping creatures that won't help them personally in return? Partially yes.
The other concept of altruism I can think of is that it's actually just selfishness when looking at a very long term frame of view. Trying to create a world where instead of people bouncing anger and indifference all over the place we instead try to make compassion and happiness echo, reverberate, bounce through eternity...
To eventually come back to ourselves.
---
And then all that morality is really is altruism, actually.
All our actions are a combination of the selfish and altruistic. At every moment we are attempting to be happy either in the long term or the short term. The case of altruism is what appears the most obvious exception. But above, it's explained away. It is either a strange sort of long term selfishness or an attempt at understanding the world that connects us to the suffering of others.
The latter half of the previous post about morality... It's not so well explained. Not well written. There is something of two levels to it that causes confusion. But still badly explained.
Sunday, May 31, 2009
Friday, May 29, 2009
memory, morality
I feel ashamed for being touched at all by the stress of life. I feel ashamed for honestly expressing my annoyance/anger at the way this world is. I feel this way because I currently don't have much stress and have managed (at least lately) to forget past stresses.
So I forget the past stresses and am relatively "happy" at the moment. Just enough going on that I'm not quite bored. Yet I remember talking quite negatively at times in this blog. Why did I do so?
Well because really I was stressed and I don't actually think it's a good thing to just be quiet about all the negatives of this world.
But at the same time it's in me to try to just forget. Ultimately we can't ever have any instant in time that we're happy unless we forget all negatives. And this process works in me (to an extent) as it does in others. Then what's left is the memory of ranting about negatives in this blog.
I guess I could try to forget that too?
The other stuff, the suffering I've gone through can simply disappear like it never actually happened, but there's a written record left of my ranting, focusing on negatives, etc...
So this feels like some wrong thing. Like I should be embarrassed and/or ashamed. How much inappropriate ranting have I done here? I don't really remember. It's probably not as bad as I think. But to a "normal" person it's probably plenty bad enough.
To some extent it's a bad memory and recreating the past and doing so incorrectly (I don't actually want at the moment to go back and reread this blog so much today...) and then what if I said something very negative like such and such? Or just something that can easily be misinterpreted?
Silliness.
I don't want to forget. That's the point. (long term)
But yet I do want to forget. Because I must to ever have a moment of happiness. (now)
I want to focus on all the ways in which we cause one another to suffer. To find answers. Ways to improve how we interact, etc. So this blog is about being incredibly negative. About never just focusing on short term happiness. Never ignoring/forgeting the negatives.
...with the forgetting of past stress I only remember I wasn't "coping" well. I wasn't happy back then. Actually I had damm good reason to be annoyed with the situations with which I was so annoyed. But now, forget all that. Forget all that negative stuff. All that's left is me not being happy, thus I ought to feel ashamed of myself for being unhappy.
It's a simple absurdity. Forgetting half of the past thus the context is lost. So like Kundera's character ripping an old diary to shreds in disgust that he finds many years later. He's forgotten all the perfectly good reasons why he acted the way he did.
So someone treats you badly and you get angry. Maybe eventually you manage to forget how they treated you. Now all that's left is the memory of you getting all angry. What the hell's wrong with you? What a shameful thing that. I guess you better forget that part to.
...but on the other hand I was thinking that generaly we remember being treated badly much more so than we remember ourselves doing bad things. Generally the people who've really hurt us, totally forget what they even did while we still remember it so clearly...
Yes? No? Just totally depends on the person....?
Maybe this here is just a special case in that a written record exists. And that otherwise the last part above is generally true...
---
There is a double basis for morality. The first is utilitarianism, where we are concerned about the greatest happiness for the greatest number over some long term (but actually solely for selfish reasons). With this method we establish our concept of morality, which varies somewhat from person to person because people have a different idea over how long the long term should be... But on this basis we establish a basic set of rules.
Of course for some people the thinking is so incredibly short term that 'the rules' they've calculated aren't much more than doing whatever it seems the majority is doing. Morality becomes simply conforming. Marveling with the rest at the emperor's new clothes, etc. And it can still be incredibly complex though. Some person may manage to get one single differential equation correct while making addition mistakes on other problems.
THEN in day to day living we rarely if ever attempt to calculate the most moral actions. We usually just dumbly follow whatever set of rules we've come up with.
When just following the rules without thinking, emotions get involved. When one follows "the rules" successfully they feel proud of themselves. When they see someone not following their own set of rules they may think them a monster, etc.
So there's a complicated calculation for their basic rules based on short term versus long term thinking. But in day to day living they simply follow those rules and feel pride/shame to the extent they do or do not successfully follow them.
These two get confused. People try to examine why do they ever bother doing seemingly nonselfish actions and they're stuck with feeling pride and 'doing the right thing' based on the moral rules they've established. Often they never manage to get to the underlying calculations that they've somehow made. In trying to get other people to follow their own rules they make emotional appeals that can't work unless the person had already made calculations that resulted in the same day to day rules.
Some people have made up their basic set of rules in such an unconscious manner that they don't even realize they've done so at all. As a result these people don't believe utilitarianism exists. They believe absolute moral laws, Kantian ethics, whatever. Absurdity. Or they recall people justifying killing some people now for some longer term greater good that maybe never came and on that basis have decided therefore utilitarianism is evil. Absurdity.
One way or another people manage to get it all effed up and the end result is that I can't recall anyone getting to the heart that all morality is very simply, bluntly, long term selfishness.
If they did, they'd realize a lot of contradictions between how they act and what they say they believe, etc.
Anyway, the really long term thinker recognizes that someone else's suffering could eventually reduce their own happiness in turn... Out of their own long term selfishness they want the world to be a better place to live in. The short termer has no such concerns, your pain is just your pain. He's "sorry" that you're in pain and he really "wishes you the best" (or "hopes for the best" I guess if he's a militant atheist) but he can't see it affecting him in turn anytime soon so he's not really going to worry about it.
He's much happier then you. He focuses on the positive of himself and this world. He is excessively proud of himself. Doubts are usually ignored. He's sure he's right. His mind is closed and he sleeps easy at night.
The long termer persecutes himself. He is constantly questioning his actions. He constantly has himself on trial as he searches for better and better ways to think and live. The long termer is not ignoring the negatives to enjoy life now, he is instead searching for negatives. Scrutinizing his potentially mistaken thoughts, his subconscious drives, to try to achieve greater happiness for all in some distant future. He is openminded because he is a long termer.
And to the extent he is a long termer he is miserable. To the extent he is truly openminded he lives in a constant state of apprehension.
---
To really think of anyone's suffering is to suffer yourself. Any man who can honestly claim he's always happy is perfectly immoral. Happiness is not something to brag about. Only in a dysfunctional winner take all dog eat dog society would people brag about such. One should instead boast of the suffering they have taken on. (OK, that's slightly stupid.) The suffering they spend time thinking about which they could instead just ignore. Not just the sufferings of others but also their own suffering as through analyzing such things one can find long term solutions which can then be used by all of society. Solutions a little less brutal then: "Shut up and quit thinking about it."
So I forget the past stresses and am relatively "happy" at the moment. Just enough going on that I'm not quite bored. Yet I remember talking quite negatively at times in this blog. Why did I do so?
Well because really I was stressed and I don't actually think it's a good thing to just be quiet about all the negatives of this world.
But at the same time it's in me to try to just forget. Ultimately we can't ever have any instant in time that we're happy unless we forget all negatives. And this process works in me (to an extent) as it does in others. Then what's left is the memory of ranting about negatives in this blog.
I guess I could try to forget that too?
The other stuff, the suffering I've gone through can simply disappear like it never actually happened, but there's a written record left of my ranting, focusing on negatives, etc...
So this feels like some wrong thing. Like I should be embarrassed and/or ashamed. How much inappropriate ranting have I done here? I don't really remember. It's probably not as bad as I think. But to a "normal" person it's probably plenty bad enough.
To some extent it's a bad memory and recreating the past and doing so incorrectly (I don't actually want at the moment to go back and reread this blog so much today...) and then what if I said something very negative like such and such? Or just something that can easily be misinterpreted?
Silliness.
I don't want to forget. That's the point. (long term)
But yet I do want to forget. Because I must to ever have a moment of happiness. (now)
I want to focus on all the ways in which we cause one another to suffer. To find answers. Ways to improve how we interact, etc. So this blog is about being incredibly negative. About never just focusing on short term happiness. Never ignoring/forgeting the negatives.
...with the forgetting of past stress I only remember I wasn't "coping" well. I wasn't happy back then. Actually I had damm good reason to be annoyed with the situations with which I was so annoyed. But now, forget all that. Forget all that negative stuff. All that's left is me not being happy, thus I ought to feel ashamed of myself for being unhappy.
It's a simple absurdity. Forgetting half of the past thus the context is lost. So like Kundera's character ripping an old diary to shreds in disgust that he finds many years later. He's forgotten all the perfectly good reasons why he acted the way he did.
So someone treats you badly and you get angry. Maybe eventually you manage to forget how they treated you. Now all that's left is the memory of you getting all angry. What the hell's wrong with you? What a shameful thing that. I guess you better forget that part to.
...but on the other hand I was thinking that generaly we remember being treated badly much more so than we remember ourselves doing bad things. Generally the people who've really hurt us, totally forget what they even did while we still remember it so clearly...
Yes? No? Just totally depends on the person....?
Maybe this here is just a special case in that a written record exists. And that otherwise the last part above is generally true...
---
There is a double basis for morality. The first is utilitarianism, where we are concerned about the greatest happiness for the greatest number over some long term (but actually solely for selfish reasons). With this method we establish our concept of morality, which varies somewhat from person to person because people have a different idea over how long the long term should be... But on this basis we establish a basic set of rules.
Of course for some people the thinking is so incredibly short term that 'the rules' they've calculated aren't much more than doing whatever it seems the majority is doing. Morality becomes simply conforming. Marveling with the rest at the emperor's new clothes, etc. And it can still be incredibly complex though. Some person may manage to get one single differential equation correct while making addition mistakes on other problems.
THEN in day to day living we rarely if ever attempt to calculate the most moral actions. We usually just dumbly follow whatever set of rules we've come up with.
When just following the rules without thinking, emotions get involved. When one follows "the rules" successfully they feel proud of themselves. When they see someone not following their own set of rules they may think them a monster, etc.
So there's a complicated calculation for their basic rules based on short term versus long term thinking. But in day to day living they simply follow those rules and feel pride/shame to the extent they do or do not successfully follow them.
These two get confused. People try to examine why do they ever bother doing seemingly nonselfish actions and they're stuck with feeling pride and 'doing the right thing' based on the moral rules they've established. Often they never manage to get to the underlying calculations that they've somehow made. In trying to get other people to follow their own rules they make emotional appeals that can't work unless the person had already made calculations that resulted in the same day to day rules.
Some people have made up their basic set of rules in such an unconscious manner that they don't even realize they've done so at all. As a result these people don't believe utilitarianism exists. They believe absolute moral laws, Kantian ethics, whatever. Absurdity. Or they recall people justifying killing some people now for some longer term greater good that maybe never came and on that basis have decided therefore utilitarianism is evil. Absurdity.
One way or another people manage to get it all effed up and the end result is that I can't recall anyone getting to the heart that all morality is very simply, bluntly, long term selfishness.
If they did, they'd realize a lot of contradictions between how they act and what they say they believe, etc.
Anyway, the really long term thinker recognizes that someone else's suffering could eventually reduce their own happiness in turn... Out of their own long term selfishness they want the world to be a better place to live in. The short termer has no such concerns, your pain is just your pain. He's "sorry" that you're in pain and he really "wishes you the best" (or "hopes for the best" I guess if he's a militant atheist) but he can't see it affecting him in turn anytime soon so he's not really going to worry about it.
He's much happier then you. He focuses on the positive of himself and this world. He is excessively proud of himself. Doubts are usually ignored. He's sure he's right. His mind is closed and he sleeps easy at night.
The long termer persecutes himself. He is constantly questioning his actions. He constantly has himself on trial as he searches for better and better ways to think and live. The long termer is not ignoring the negatives to enjoy life now, he is instead searching for negatives. Scrutinizing his potentially mistaken thoughts, his subconscious drives, to try to achieve greater happiness for all in some distant future. He is openminded because he is a long termer.
And to the extent he is a long termer he is miserable. To the extent he is truly openminded he lives in a constant state of apprehension.
---
To really think of anyone's suffering is to suffer yourself. Any man who can honestly claim he's always happy is perfectly immoral. Happiness is not something to brag about. Only in a dysfunctional winner take all dog eat dog society would people brag about such. One should instead boast of the suffering they have taken on. (OK, that's slightly stupid.) The suffering they spend time thinking about which they could instead just ignore. Not just the sufferings of others but also their own suffering as through analyzing such things one can find long term solutions which can then be used by all of society. Solutions a little less brutal then: "Shut up and quit thinking about it."
Thursday, May 28, 2009
http://www.ruthheidrich.com/Tarahumara.html
Don't know how they manage it. I've been going on a two hour run once a week and lately I've been really getting a headache afterwards. I wonder if I'm getting hypokalemic and/or hyponatremic. I've been pushing it too hard these last three weeks though. I was thinking maybe I need electrolyte pills. Have been drinking just a little gatorade. They run 24 to 72 hours just on corn?
I think I've still improved every run but I've got to make some adjustments. Not enjoying it now. Need to slow down. Somehow not get headaches. Just getting monotonous now.
...this has been a week off and it's such an unusual thing that I hardly know what to do... (I should mainly study, chop chop). Tuesday after my run I went to coworkers house with my wife and met 8 or so other people from work. I wasn't feeling so great after the run. It was fun when finally this one lady showed up from work who's highly intelligent. I rarely see her at work but I really enjoy her company. When we left my wife immediately commented on how much she liked her. My wife and I seem so different but somehow we're very similar. She, my wife, this one also (bluntly put) more intelligent nurse and I watched a rerun of the national spelling bee and tried to figure out the words based on their language roots, etc and somehow had a much funner and more interesting time then the other half of the party which went off and discussed boring crap.
That other intelligent coworker... she's the one I wish would be my trainer, the nurse I probably like best of the 50 or so I work with, she just happens to be my younger sister's best friend. My younger (half) sister is then another person I seemingly have nothing at all in common with but apparently have something essential in common with.
Then Wednesday out with S. Maybe still a bit bleh from the run. My wife at first didn't like S. The way she scowls. Wonderful picture of her scowling on facebook. I love it. Now my wife admits that she's wonderful. I am a pretty good judge of character. My wife thinks I'm not because even when I'm pretty sure a person's not so good I still give them a chance just on that ever so slight chance I'll be wrong.
Was proven very wrong about someone this last week or so. But out of compassion for them I tried to be very nice to them. Repeatedly. Bit comical how they blew me off. I feel sorry for them still and hardly mind the lies and indifference I got for my trouble.
Don't know how they manage it. I've been going on a two hour run once a week and lately I've been really getting a headache afterwards. I wonder if I'm getting hypokalemic and/or hyponatremic. I've been pushing it too hard these last three weeks though. I was thinking maybe I need electrolyte pills. Have been drinking just a little gatorade. They run 24 to 72 hours just on corn?
I think I've still improved every run but I've got to make some adjustments. Not enjoying it now. Need to slow down. Somehow not get headaches. Just getting monotonous now.
...this has been a week off and it's such an unusual thing that I hardly know what to do... (I should mainly study, chop chop). Tuesday after my run I went to coworkers house with my wife and met 8 or so other people from work. I wasn't feeling so great after the run. It was fun when finally this one lady showed up from work who's highly intelligent. I rarely see her at work but I really enjoy her company. When we left my wife immediately commented on how much she liked her. My wife and I seem so different but somehow we're very similar. She, my wife, this one also (bluntly put) more intelligent nurse and I watched a rerun of the national spelling bee and tried to figure out the words based on their language roots, etc and somehow had a much funner and more interesting time then the other half of the party which went off and discussed boring crap.
That other intelligent coworker... she's the one I wish would be my trainer, the nurse I probably like best of the 50 or so I work with, she just happens to be my younger sister's best friend. My younger (half) sister is then another person I seemingly have nothing at all in common with but apparently have something essential in common with.
Then Wednesday out with S. Maybe still a bit bleh from the run. My wife at first didn't like S. The way she scowls. Wonderful picture of her scowling on facebook. I love it. Now my wife admits that she's wonderful. I am a pretty good judge of character. My wife thinks I'm not because even when I'm pretty sure a person's not so good I still give them a chance just on that ever so slight chance I'll be wrong.
Was proven very wrong about someone this last week or so. But out of compassion for them I tried to be very nice to them. Repeatedly. Bit comical how they blew me off. I feel sorry for them still and hardly mind the lies and indifference I got for my trouble.
Wednesday, May 27, 2009
http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/life/8-toxic-personalities-to-avoid-461078/
What an incredibly obscene article.
Although we like to think that the people in our lives are well-adjusted, happy, healthy minded individuals, we sometimes realize that it just isn't so. Personally, I've had moments where I'll be skipping through my day, happy as can be, thinking life is grand and BAM, I'll be blindsided by someone who manages to knock the happy wind out of my sails. Sometimes it is easy to write it off and other times, not so much.
Maybe you are a positive person, but when you are around a certain individual, you feel negative. Or, maybe you have an idealistic view of the world and when you are with certain people, you are made to feel silly, unrealistic or delusional. Or, maybe you pride yourself in being completely independent and in control of your life, but when you are around a certain family member, you regress into a state of childhood.
Some of these situations, and yes, these people, can have a tremendously negative impact on our lives. And, although we are all human and have our 'issues,' some 'issues' are quite frankly, toxic. They are toxic to our happiness. They are toxic to our mental outlook. They are toxic to our self-esteem. And they are toxic to our lives. They can suck the life out of us and even shorten our lifespan.
Here are the worst of the toxic personalities out there and how to spot them:
1. Manipulative Mary: These individuals are experts at manipulation tactics. Is a matter of fact, you may not even realize you have been manipulated until it is too late. These individuals figure out what your 'buttons' are, and push them to get what they want.
Why they are toxic: These people have a way of eating away at your belief system and self-esteem. They find ways to make you do things that you don't necessarily want to do and before you know it, you lose your sense of identity, your personal priorities and your ability to see the reality of the situation. The world all of a sudden becomes centered around their needs and their priorities.
2. Narcissistic Nancy: These people have an extreme sense of self-importance and believe that the world revolves around them. They are often not as sly as the Manipulative Marys of the world, but instead, tend to be a bit overt about getting their needs met. You often want to say to them "It isn't always about you."
Why they are toxic: They are solely focused on their needs, leaving your needs in the dust. You are left disappointed and unfulfilled. Further, they zap your energy by getting you to focus so much on them, that you have nothing left for yourself.
3. Debbie Downers: These people can't appreciate the positive in life. If you tell them that it is a beautiful day, they will tell you about the impending dreary forecast. If you tell them you aced a mid-term, they'll tell you about how difficult the final is going to be.
Why they are toxic: They take the joy out of everything. Your rosy outlook on life continues to get squashed with negativity. Before you know it, their negativity consumes you and you start looking at things with gray colored glasses yourself.
4. Judgmental Jims: When you see things as cute and quirky, they see things as strange and unattractive. If you find people's unique perspectives refreshing, they find them 'wrong'. If you like someone's eclectic taste, they find it 'disturbing' or 'bad'.
Why they are toxic: Judgmental people are much like Debbie Downers. In a world where freedom rings, judgment is sooo over. If the world was a homogeneous place, life would be pretty boring. Spending a lot of time with these types can inadvertently convert you into a judgmental person as well.
5. Dream Killing Keiths: Every time you have an idea, these people tell you why you can't do it. As you achieve, they try to pull you down. As you dream, they are the first to tell you it is impossible.
Why they are toxic: These people are stuck in what is instead of what could be. Further, these individuals eat away at your self-esteem and your belief in yourself. Progress and change can only occur from doing new things and innovating, dreaming the impossible and reaching for the stars.
6. Insincere Illissas: You never quite feel that these people are being sincere. You tell a funny story, they give you a polite laugh. You feel depressed and sad and they give you a 'there, there' type response. You tell them you are excited about something and you get a very ho-hum response.
Why they are toxic: People who aren't sincere or genuine build relationships on superficial criteria. This breeds shallow, meaningless relationships. When you are really in need of a friend, they won't be there. When you really need constructive criticism, they would rather tell you that you are great the way you are. When you need support, they would rather see you fail or make a fool of yourself.
7. Disrespectful Dannys: These people will say or do things at the most inappropriate times and in the most inappropriate ways. In essence, they are more subtle, grown up bullies. Maybe this person is a friend who you confided in and uses your secret against you. Maybe it is a family member who puts their busy-body nose into your affairs when it is none of their business. Or maybe, it is a colleague who says demeaning things to you.
Why they are toxic: These people have no sense of boundaries and don't respect your feelings or, for that matter, your privacy. These people will cause you to feel frustrated and disrespected.
8. Never Enough Nellies: You can never give enough to these people to make them happy. They take you for granted and have unrealistic expectations of you. They find ways to continually fault you and never take responsibility for anything themselves.
Why they are toxic: You will spend so much time trying to please them, that you will end up losing yourself in the process. They will require all of your time and energy, leaving you worn out and your own needs sacrificed.
All of these personalities have several things in common. 1) the more these people get away with their behavior, the more they will continue. 2) Unfortunately, most of these people don't see that what they do is wrong and as a result, talking to them about it will fall on deaf ears, leaving you wondering if you are the crazy one. 3) Most of these people get worse with age, making their impact on you stronger with time.
Frankly, life is too short to spend your time dealing with toxicity. If you can, avoid spending mucho time with people who are indicative of these behaviors and you'll feel a lot happier. Have you encountered these personalities? What have you done? Any personalities you would add?
What an incredibly obscene article.
To change the mind of a closeminded person through the use of reason:
1. You must overcome their suspicion that your "reason" is really just something devious, like the arguments of O.J. Simpson's lawyer. You must overcome their suspicion that ultimately you just want to win arguments at all costs and control people.
If you feel that they are being closeminded you must hide your natural urge to turn to frustration, annoyance, and anger. The urge is natural because when someone is being closeminded reason is generally shut off and this leaves only force. But you must hide such honesty because the minute you express it their mind closes that much more. Because then they really see it as you wanting to force them, to control them.
A truth seeker practices the golden rule and tries to not hide things from others. One never hides things exactly because one wants others to reach all truths the same as you hope to do. But exactly by not hiding things these others see the threat of force and shut down their minds from any learning.
2. You must make it clear that no punishment awaits them if they admit they're wrong...
3. Show them that they don't lose their personal identity by changing their mind. Compliment them about other aspects of who they are. Make them feel other aspects of their persona are what's important about them.
4. Make truth become the way to happiness. An impossible task. The truth so often means focusing on negatives instead of just ignoring them. To ever actually be happy for a given moment we must indeed ignore all sufferings, both are own and that of others. For a person to truly think that truth is the way to happiness, it means looking at the negatives a lot more. We are all spending every moment trying to be happy. The question is to what degree do we focus on long term happiness or immediate short term happiness. Ignoring all negatives right now, means achieving immediate short term happiness. To think that truth is the way to happiness means focusing instead so much more on the long term.
This ultimately is probably how one instead focuses on the long term. By having a long period of time where they cannot be happy right at this moment. Ignoring negatives was not possible. So they learned to focus on the too far future and instead associate truth with happiness instead of the "fake" smile.
But zombiefying people in order to force them to focus on the longer term is no good.
You must instead recognize just what monkeys we are. Realizing to what a huge extent all disagreements are still really solved solely by force in this world. You must address them not like a civilized person (a zombie) but like the monkey they are. You must tiptoe around them concerning any disagreement, doing your best to "not make any sudden movements" lest they think you're really just trying to force them. In this way they hopefully won't automatically turn the disagreement into a battle of wills and seeing who can successfully force the other to change.
-
"Why do you always have to win arguments?"
"Huh? I'm just telling you the reasoning behind my point of view. You in turn tell me the reasoning behind yours. Why would you think I'm just trying to win an argument?"
1. You must overcome their suspicion that your "reason" is really just something devious, like the arguments of O.J. Simpson's lawyer. You must overcome their suspicion that ultimately you just want to win arguments at all costs and control people.
If you feel that they are being closeminded you must hide your natural urge to turn to frustration, annoyance, and anger. The urge is natural because when someone is being closeminded reason is generally shut off and this leaves only force. But you must hide such honesty because the minute you express it their mind closes that much more. Because then they really see it as you wanting to force them, to control them.
A truth seeker practices the golden rule and tries to not hide things from others. One never hides things exactly because one wants others to reach all truths the same as you hope to do. But exactly by not hiding things these others see the threat of force and shut down their minds from any learning.
2. You must make it clear that no punishment awaits them if they admit they're wrong...
3. Show them that they don't lose their personal identity by changing their mind. Compliment them about other aspects of who they are. Make them feel other aspects of their persona are what's important about them.
4. Make truth become the way to happiness. An impossible task. The truth so often means focusing on negatives instead of just ignoring them. To ever actually be happy for a given moment we must indeed ignore all sufferings, both are own and that of others. For a person to truly think that truth is the way to happiness, it means looking at the negatives a lot more. We are all spending every moment trying to be happy. The question is to what degree do we focus on long term happiness or immediate short term happiness. Ignoring all negatives right now, means achieving immediate short term happiness. To think that truth is the way to happiness means focusing instead so much more on the long term.
'I had always wanted you to admire my fasting,' says the Hunger Artist. 'We do admire it,' says the impressario who employs him. 'But you shouldn't admire it' - 'Well then we don't admire it,' says the impressario, 'but why shouldn't we admire it?' - 'Because I have to fast, I can't help it.' - 'What a fellow you are,' says the other, 'and why can't you help it?' - 'Because I couldn't find the food I liked. If I had found it, believe me, I should have made no fuss and stuffed myself like you or anyone else.
Kafka, The Hunger Artist
This ultimately is probably how one instead focuses on the long term. By having a long period of time where they cannot be happy right at this moment. Ignoring negatives was not possible. So they learned to focus on the too far future and instead associate truth with happiness instead of the "fake" smile.
But zombiefying people in order to force them to focus on the longer term is no good.
You must instead recognize just what monkeys we are. Realizing to what a huge extent all disagreements are still really solved solely by force in this world. You must address them not like a civilized person (a zombie) but like the monkey they are. You must tiptoe around them concerning any disagreement, doing your best to "not make any sudden movements" lest they think you're really just trying to force them. In this way they hopefully won't automatically turn the disagreement into a battle of wills and seeing who can successfully force the other to change.
-
"Why do you always have to win arguments?"
"Huh? I'm just telling you the reasoning behind my point of view. You in turn tell me the reasoning behind yours. Why would you think I'm just trying to win an argument?"
Monday, May 25, 2009
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090523/ap_on_re_as/as_china_suicide_help
I recall an episode of the Phil Donahue show from 25 years ago. Back then talk shows could still be somewhat intellectual and Phil's show was. He recently had a new show but made the mistake of somewhat questioning the Iraq War; having some people on the show who disagreed with it. His show was quickly canceled with the explanation that his ratings were bad, which was a lie.
Anyway he had an episode about suicide where he had on a lady who had been seriously depressed for many, many years and really just wanted to die. Very quickly a lady in the audience got up to ask (with a look of disgust on her face) why she hadn't just killed herself if she really wanted to die? Clearly she was just an attention seeker. Quite a few people in the audience clapped or voiced their approval.
Then I recall a guy who recently put up a link to a live cam of him killing himself to a discussion board. Most people laughed, told to him to go ahead, etc.
Then I recall linking this to another board, a board that has the word 'compassion' right in it's subtitle. Quickly multiple people come up talking about how you have to watch out for 'drama llamas', people just looking for attention, etc.
This in turn reminds me of quite a few others things, of people responding to others not hiding their pain with disgust, suspicion, etc...
I think that in order to ever truly be happy for a given moment, you have to ignore all negatives. You have to ignore your sufferings and the suffering of others. I don't think it's wrong to have moments when you do this. But i think a lot... most people spend too much time doing this? A lot of people want to ignore the negatives, the suffering way too often. And when someone else doesn't hide their own pain, they often respond with hate.
It's impossible to say to just how much of our time we should spend ignoring the negatives. I do wish that people would spend more time caring about the sufferings of others. And when they've reached the point that they respond with hate or suspicion to people not hiding their pain, they've just gone way too far.
....Beyond trying I guess to justify indifference by dismissing such behavior as "attention seeking", I've then seen a lot of people claim that the person not hiding their unhappiness is either being manipulative or commiting "emotional blackmail". Which... even if it were true I'd really rather err on the side of showing compassion and thus getting "manipulated".
...it sounds strange but I've really seen such behavior a lot. It really seems to be the majority who acts this way in my experience...
I think another concern is that there is an overriding sentiment that we're all supposed to be rugged individualists and that ultimately, just the whole way our society is set-up; the car/TV culture, we really don't have much to do with most other people and there's just not much of a clear selfish reason to be compassionate to these endless multitudes that we aren't really connected to. So most expect that everyone is supposed to hide their unhappiness and be a "rugged individualist" and when someone doesn't, people respond with disgust, because to them, this is a person who isn't properly conforming.
And in a society based on force instead of reason (which I think is largely the reality of this world) the assumption is that this apparent plea for help is a trick. They must just want attention. They're just being manipulative. They're trying to commit emotional blackmail... They should be ignored or perhaps even attacked. At best they think the proper response to any display of unhappines is: "Go see a psychiatrist." As opposed to a nondysfunctional community where the response would be other members of the community simply showing some concern, some compassion, etc.
People then argue that it's dangerous for nonprofessionals to get involved as if any display of unhappiness means deep psychological issues (hallucinations, etc? and in trying to help you might say something that's worse than nothing at all ) as opposed to the reality that this is world where we're all struggling to survive and most of us are bit isolated as compared to the manner in which mankind has lived for many thousands of years. And that most people just could use a few more friends. Although occasionally they may need quite a bit more...
"I pushed him off because jumpers like Chen are very selfish. Their action violates a lot of public interest," Lai was quoted as saying by Xinhua. "They do not really dare to kill themselves. Instead, they just want to raise the relevant government authorities' attention to their appeals.".....
The paper said Lai was released on bail Friday but did not give any details. It said he had been on medication for "a mental illness" for decades and had been on his way to a hospital for his pills.
I recall an episode of the Phil Donahue show from 25 years ago. Back then talk shows could still be somewhat intellectual and Phil's show was. He recently had a new show but made the mistake of somewhat questioning the Iraq War; having some people on the show who disagreed with it. His show was quickly canceled with the explanation that his ratings were bad, which was a lie.
Anyway he had an episode about suicide where he had on a lady who had been seriously depressed for many, many years and really just wanted to die. Very quickly a lady in the audience got up to ask (with a look of disgust on her face) why she hadn't just killed herself if she really wanted to die? Clearly she was just an attention seeker. Quite a few people in the audience clapped or voiced their approval.
Then I recall a guy who recently put up a link to a live cam of him killing himself to a discussion board. Most people laughed, told to him to go ahead, etc.
Then I recall linking this to another board, a board that has the word 'compassion' right in it's subtitle. Quickly multiple people come up talking about how you have to watch out for 'drama llamas', people just looking for attention, etc.
This in turn reminds me of quite a few others things, of people responding to others not hiding their pain with disgust, suspicion, etc...
I think that in order to ever truly be happy for a given moment, you have to ignore all negatives. You have to ignore your sufferings and the suffering of others. I don't think it's wrong to have moments when you do this. But i think a lot... most people spend too much time doing this? A lot of people want to ignore the negatives, the suffering way too often. And when someone else doesn't hide their own pain, they often respond with hate.
It's impossible to say to just how much of our time we should spend ignoring the negatives. I do wish that people would spend more time caring about the sufferings of others. And when they've reached the point that they respond with hate or suspicion to people not hiding their pain, they've just gone way too far.
....Beyond trying I guess to justify indifference by dismissing such behavior as "attention seeking", I've then seen a lot of people claim that the person not hiding their unhappiness is either being manipulative or commiting "emotional blackmail". Which... even if it were true I'd really rather err on the side of showing compassion and thus getting "manipulated".
...it sounds strange but I've really seen such behavior a lot. It really seems to be the majority who acts this way in my experience...
I think another concern is that there is an overriding sentiment that we're all supposed to be rugged individualists and that ultimately, just the whole way our society is set-up; the car/TV culture, we really don't have much to do with most other people and there's just not much of a clear selfish reason to be compassionate to these endless multitudes that we aren't really connected to. So most expect that everyone is supposed to hide their unhappiness and be a "rugged individualist" and when someone doesn't, people respond with disgust, because to them, this is a person who isn't properly conforming.
And in a society based on force instead of reason (which I think is largely the reality of this world) the assumption is that this apparent plea for help is a trick. They must just want attention. They're just being manipulative. They're trying to commit emotional blackmail... They should be ignored or perhaps even attacked. At best they think the proper response to any display of unhappines is: "Go see a psychiatrist." As opposed to a nondysfunctional community where the response would be other members of the community simply showing some concern, some compassion, etc.
People then argue that it's dangerous for nonprofessionals to get involved as if any display of unhappiness means deep psychological issues (hallucinations, etc? and in trying to help you might say something that's worse than nothing at all ) as opposed to the reality that this is world where we're all struggling to survive and most of us are bit isolated as compared to the manner in which mankind has lived for many thousands of years. And that most people just could use a few more friends. Although occasionally they may need quite a bit more...
Friday, May 22, 2009
This is so weird I don't even know how to respond to it... You clearly have some deeply rooted problems that you somehow seem to project against me, and anyone else you see as representatives of .... Have you ever considered moving on with your life instead of being stuck in the same old shit year after year? I think it would be good for you.
I don't think anything I'll say will ever make you change your mind about me, and you're not known to ever be able to change your mind or admit you're wrong either, so it's pretty useless to even argue with you. You have your strong opinion about me, and no matter what I do or say you'll never change your mind. Why don't we leave it at that? Or are we looking at another five years of bitter, negative and hateful posts from you? Talk about being a postive force....
...I have no intention of trying to meet your slandering against me, I know who I am and what I'm doing, and you won't change this no matter how much you try to bully me into believing it. I guess this is how you deal with people, and I guess many people must get scared of this horrible behaviour of yours. And I also assume you really have no self awareness of it either, considering how high and mighty you see yourself being.
...you really should feel a moral obligation to do this, anything else would be terribly hypocritic of you. Unless of course you're happy being the bitter bystander not doing anything but complaining and giving people who actually do things shit. My guess is the latter, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
...It has been interesting to hear your view of the situation, somewhere deep down I hoped to get through to you and find out why you have so much hate in you, but it seems to be much more deeply rooted than I thought. Too bad, and I really hope you'll eventually see this yourself and seek help for it.
Please continue... if you like, but you should know that the years of bullying you have put us through has to come to an end now. We won't tolerate any more of this behaviour, you have been allowed to keep this up way much longer than anyone else.
...This is certainly not an easy decision, or something that we take lightly on. I don't think you understand how much pain and hurt you have caused by your behaviour the last couple of years, and just how much leeway you have been given at the expense of the people you have been bullying.
I think that force is so ingrained in our society that even when we appear to be trying to use reason to discuss disagreements, people suspect it's a trick or they suspect that the 'reasoner' may not even realize that really it's still just about trying to control others. They suspect force even when it appears to be reason and react as if it were an attempt to control them with force. They keep their mind's closed and thus the 'force' is unsuccessful.
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